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	<title>Comments for Stop</title>
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	<link>http://stop.zona-m.net</link>
	<description>fuel for your brain! / carburante per il cervello</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 02 Jun 2013 17:45:30 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Some questions and suggestions to all commoners by marco</title>
		<link>http://stop.zona-m.net/2013/05/some-questions-and-suggestions-to-all-commoners/#comment-13518</link>
		<dc:creator>marco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Jun 2013 17:45:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stop.zona-m.net/?p=4273#comment-13518</guid>
		<description>Looking forward to read your coming posts!

Wrt to &quot;open data has to be acknowledged to be a partial answer&quot;. Of course. Remember, the whole &quot;how to democratize infrastructures management?&quot; statement was a Tweet. I had to &quot;shock&quot; commoners in real time with &lt;=140 characters, to make them discover the mere existence of the &quot;tool&quot;, that&#039;s it. But I have written plenty on open data not being a complete answer. See the two &quot;Open Data, Open Society&quot; reports linked from my main writings page at http://mfioretti.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looking forward to read your coming posts!</p>
<p>Wrt to &#8220;open data has to be acknowledged to be a partial answer&#8221;. Of course. Remember, the whole &#8220;how to democratize infrastructures management?&#8221; statement was a Tweet. I had to &#8220;shock&#8221; commoners in real time with < =140 characters, to make them discover the mere existence of the "tool", that's it. But I have written plenty on open data not being a complete answer. See the two "Open Data, Open Society" reports linked from my main writings page at <a href="http://mfioretti.com" rel="nofollow">http://mfioretti.com</p>
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		<title>Comment on Some questions and suggestions to all commoners by Mike Linksvayer</title>
		<link>http://stop.zona-m.net/2013/05/some-questions-and-suggestions-to-all-commoners/#comment-13515</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Linksvayer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Jun 2013 15:28:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stop.zona-m.net/?p=4273#comment-13515</guid>
		<description>Thanks for making lots of great points very concisely in your remarks. I am going to blog about these soon...

One quibble:

&lt;blockquote&gt;how to democratize infrastructures management? My answer: Open Data. Do commoners and Open Data guys ever talk to each other?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

But open data has to be acknowledged to be a partial answer. Open data can help, but isn&#039;t a substitute for opening up processes, participation, accountability, really changing the power dynamics of governance. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2012489 isn&#039;t specific to infrastructure management, but I think the general message applies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for making lots of great points very concisely in your remarks. I am going to blog about these soon&#8230;</p>
<p>One quibble:</p>
<blockquote><p>how to democratize infrastructures management? My answer: Open Data. Do commoners and Open Data guys ever talk to each other?</p></blockquote>
<p>But open data has to be acknowledged to be a partial answer. Open data can help, but isn&#8217;t a substitute for opening up processes, participation, accountability, really changing the power dynamics of governance. <a href="https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2012489" rel="nofollow">https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2012489</a> isn&#8217;t specific to infrastructure management, but I think the general message applies.</p>
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		<title>Comment on On copyright being useless because it&#8217;s recent by Mike Linksvayer</title>
		<link>http://stop.zona-m.net/2013/05/on-copyright-being-useless-because-its-recent/#comment-13513</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Linksvayer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Jun 2013 15:27:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stop.zona-m.net/?p=4268#comment-13513</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I fear that many people intuitively feel that that argument “as is” doesn’t make much sense, and so stop listening. What do you think?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Evidently it&#039;s very hard for people to accept that their argument is lacking. It is easier to assume that repetition at higher volume is all that is necessary. This seems endemic to human discourse; I merely want people I agree with to do better. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I fear that many people intuitively feel that that argument “as is” doesn’t make much sense, and so stop listening. What do you think?</p></blockquote>
<p>Evidently it&#8217;s very hard for people to accept that their argument is lacking. It is easier to assume that repetition at higher volume is all that is necessary. This seems endemic to human discourse; I merely want people I agree with to do better. <img src='http://stop.zona-m.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on On copyright being useless because it&#8217;s recent by marco</title>
		<link>http://stop.zona-m.net/2013/05/on-copyright-being-useless-because-its-recent/#comment-13508</link>
		<dc:creator>marco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Jun 2013 21:53:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stop.zona-m.net/?p=4268#comment-13508</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Hi, it was a pleasure meeting you at the conference!&lt;/em&gt;

Same for me, Mike!

Thanks for your comments! In general (it&#039;s almost midnight here, and theoretically the only reason to be at the keyboard now is to finish a blog post so I can rest tomorrow...), I do agree on all the several very perverse effects of the current copyright regime that you describe, up to and including this:

&lt;em&gt;Impact on other fields only strengthens case for abolition&lt;/em&gt;

This said, I didn&#039;t write this post because I heard certain things once, in that one single session in Berlin. I wrote it because I hear that same argument all the time, always and only in that same form (that is with nothing else mentioned in the same breath, even when there would be enough time/bandwidth). Which is bad, because with so many excellent, way more robust reasons to explain that copyright should be at least completely rebuilt/reformed, if not downright abolished,  it weakens the discourse. Simplification is good and necessary, but why simplify on/to things that can&#039;t stand a second view? I fear that many people intuitively feel that that argument &quot;as is&quot; doesn&#039;t make much sense, and so stop listening. What do you think?

In general, I also have other perplexities against the &quot;mainstream intellectual&quot;, high-ground way to fight copyright and copyright excesses, but that is matter for another post. Stay tuned!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Hi, it was a pleasure meeting you at the conference!</em></p>
<p>Same for me, Mike!</p>
<p>Thanks for your comments! In general (it&#8217;s almost midnight here, and theoretically the only reason to be at the keyboard now is to finish a blog post so I can rest tomorrow&#8230;), I do agree on all the several very perverse effects of the current copyright regime that you describe, up to and including this:</p>
<p><em>Impact on other fields only strengthens case for abolition</em></p>
<p>This said, I didn&#8217;t write this post because I heard certain things once, in that one single session in Berlin. I wrote it because I hear that same argument all the time, always and only in that same form (that is with nothing else mentioned in the same breath, even when there would be enough time/bandwidth). Which is bad, because with so many excellent, way more robust reasons to explain that copyright should be at least completely rebuilt/reformed, if not downright abolished,  it weakens the discourse. Simplification is good and necessary, but why simplify on/to things that can&#8217;t stand a second view? I fear that many people intuitively feel that that argument &#8220;as is&#8221; doesn&#8217;t make much sense, and so stop listening. What do you think?</p>
<p>In general, I also have other perplexities against the &#8220;mainstream intellectual&#8221;, high-ground way to fight copyright and copyright excesses, but that is matter for another post. Stay tuned!</p>
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		<title>Comment on On copyright being useless because it&#8217;s recent by Mike Linksvayer</title>
		<link>http://stop.zona-m.net/2013/05/on-copyright-being-useless-because-its-recent/#comment-13506</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Linksvayer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Jun 2013 20:54:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stop.zona-m.net/?p=4268#comment-13506</guid>
		<description>Hi, it was a pleasure meeting you at the conference!

I agree recency is not a great argument against copyright. Indeed that&#039;s a reason I emphasize that knowledge enclosure is much older than copyright; such is simply a &quot;modern&quot; way of enforcing privileges and inequalities in what may be known and communicated. But I think you&#039;ve overstated some points above:

* Recency is pertinent as we can see that much culture and knowledge was created pre-copyright; whatever assumptions one makes about optimal production and relation to protection money, this demolishes the ridiculous but often-assumed assertion that there would be a dearth of production without copyright -- and that assertion is even more ridiculous with 7 billion people; see https://works.bepress.com/tom_bell/1/ ... recency of more universal suffrage is a facile comparison: consider the desirable outcomes instead -- under what rules are fairness and freedom maximized?

* At a conference focused on moving to a commons-based society, which for many seems to approximately mean moving as much provisioning as possible outside of market and state, removing reliance on pecuniary incentives seems like an obvious win. But even outside of this context -- because holding out prospect of protection money for inspiration systematically warps society via attacks on free speech, commons infrastructure, and the harmful perverse effects of narrow incentives and lotteries on creative (culture and other) production -- a common trope and useful contribution of behavioral economics.

* Art/artists receive prime mention because it/they are used as the first line human shields of those defending market-based censorship. Impact on other fields only strengthens case for abolition -- of course this should always be mentioned in same breath, but there is only so much time and bandwidth. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, it was a pleasure meeting you at the conference!</p>
<p>I agree recency is not a great argument against copyright. Indeed that&#8217;s a reason I emphasize that knowledge enclosure is much older than copyright; such is simply a &#8220;modern&#8221; way of enforcing privileges and inequalities in what may be known and communicated. But I think you&#8217;ve overstated some points above:</p>
<p>* Recency is pertinent as we can see that much culture and knowledge was created pre-copyright; whatever assumptions one makes about optimal production and relation to protection money, this demolishes the ridiculous but often-assumed assertion that there would be a dearth of production without copyright &#8212; and that assertion is even more ridiculous with 7 billion people; see <a href="https://works.bepress.com/tom_bell/1/" rel="nofollow">https://works.bepress.com/tom_bell/1/</a> &#8230; recency of more universal suffrage is a facile comparison: consider the desirable outcomes instead &#8212; under what rules are fairness and freedom maximized?</p>
<p>* At a conference focused on moving to a commons-based society, which for many seems to approximately mean moving as much provisioning as possible outside of market and state, removing reliance on pecuniary incentives seems like an obvious win. But even outside of this context &#8212; because holding out prospect of protection money for inspiration systematically warps society via attacks on free speech, commons infrastructure, and the harmful perverse effects of narrow incentives and lotteries on creative (culture and other) production &#8212; a common trope and useful contribution of behavioral economics.</p>
<p>* Art/artists receive prime mention because it/they are used as the first line human shields of those defending market-based censorship. Impact on other fields only strengthens case for abolition &#8212; of course this should always be mentioned in same breath, but there is only so much time and bandwidth. <img src='http://stop.zona-m.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on On copyright being useless because it&#8217;s recent by Some questions and suggestions to all commoners &#124; Stop</title>
		<link>http://stop.zona-m.net/2013/05/on-copyright-being-useless-because-its-recent/#comment-13408</link>
		<dc:creator>Some questions and suggestions to all commoners &#124; Stop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 May 2013 16:38:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stop.zona-m.net/?p=4268#comment-13408</guid>
		<description>[...] Stop   fuel for your brain! / carburante per il cervello    Skip to content HomeAboutCourses for digital citizens        &#8592; On copyright being useless because it&#8217;s recent [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Stop   fuel for your brain! / carburante per il cervello    Skip to content HomeAboutCourses for digital citizens        &larr; On copyright being useless because it&#8217;s recent [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Google Reader quits? That&#8217;s wonderful, because&#8230; by Losing your Google Reader? Try Tiny Tiny RSS instead &#124; TechRepublic</title>
		<link>http://stop.zona-m.net/2013/03/google-reader-quits-thats-wonderful-because/#comment-12784</link>
		<dc:creator>Losing your Google Reader? Try Tiny Tiny RSS instead &#124; TechRepublic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Mar 2013 12:30:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stop.zona-m.net/?p=4242#comment-12784</guid>
		<description>[...] Reader is wonderful news. I’ve already explained the general reasons for such a statement on my personal website. Here, instead, I’ll show you one of the practical solutions: Free Software that may not be just [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Reader is wonderful news. I’ve already explained the general reasons for such a statement on my personal website. Here, instead, I’ll show you one of the practical solutions: Free Software that may not be just [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on The false savings of AntexWeb by AntexWeb, le buste paga di Maria Calzetta &#124; Stop</title>
		<link>http://stop.zona-m.net/2013/02/the-false-savings-of-antexweb/#comment-12457</link>
		<dc:creator>AntexWeb, le buste paga di Maria Calzetta &#124; Stop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2013 15:35:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stop.zona-m.net/?p=4208#comment-12457</guid>
		<description>[...] (una versione inglese di questa storia vera è qui) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] (una versione inglese di questa storia vera è qui) [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on The alternatives to Apple, Facebook &amp; C already exist. Shall we package them? by marco</title>
		<link>http://stop.zona-m.net/2013/01/the-alternatives-to-apple-facebook-c-already-exist-shall-we-package-them/#comment-11518</link>
		<dc:creator>marco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2013 22:48:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stop.zona-m.net/?p=4196#comment-11518</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your feedback, Hans.

I&#039;ve discovered Friendica recently and yes, it does seem another good component for the bundle I&#039;m suggesting. It is also true that &quot;really critical situations&quot; are not THE first and main focus here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your feedback, Hans.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve discovered Friendica recently and yes, it does seem another good component for the bundle I&#8217;m suggesting. It is also true that &#8220;really critical situations&#8221; are not THE first and main focus here.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The alternatives to Apple, Facebook &amp; C already exist. Shall we package them? by Hans</title>
		<link>http://stop.zona-m.net/2013/01/the-alternatives-to-apple-facebook-c-already-exist-shall-we-package-them/#comment-11517</link>
		<dc:creator>Hans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2013 20:32:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stop.zona-m.net/?p=4196#comment-11517</guid>
		<description>Good point in this article.

From what I&#039;ve read and seen in videos of presentations, the freedombox project may have a different focus than what you propose (their priority is security and privacy for individuals in really critical situations) but it is certainly foremost a software project. They just chose the plug computer as a first hardware platform since it&#039;s already available. I&#039;ve heard or read freedombox people say several times that they hope better, cheaper, opener hardware comes along.

I&#039;ve been interested in friendica, whose tagline is &#039;the internet is our social network&#039;. Haven&#039;t quite figured out what it&#039;s about, but it seems a similar philosophy to what you propose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point in this article.</p>
<p>From what I&#8217;ve read and seen in videos of presentations, the freedombox project may have a different focus than what you propose (their priority is security and privacy for individuals in really critical situations) but it is certainly foremost a software project. They just chose the plug computer as a first hardware platform since it&#8217;s already available. I&#8217;ve heard or read freedombox people say several times that they hope better, cheaper, opener hardware comes along.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been interested in friendica, whose tagline is &#8216;the internet is our social network&#8217;. Haven&#8217;t quite figured out what it&#8217;s about, but it seems a similar philosophy to what you propose.</p>
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